Old clothes, old pictures, painful memories

maggie · 01-28-09 5:23 pm

Pauli, to me it isn't any wonder that SDAs commit suicide with those kinds of thoughts capturing their imaginations, along with the inevitable pain of living, in general. If you're going to hell anyway, why not rest awhile before you burn? The problem is systemic, and requires a willingness to look at the actual effect the writings of Ellen White have on individuals, without reflexively writing off the individuals as "misusing" the inspired literature. I see a lot of creativity being invested in rationalizing away the damage to human beings done by SDA, but I don't see the first step toward accepting that there has been massive generational damage to individuals and families, and that a whole new way of thinking must emerge if that ongoing damage is to stop. If we would make the emotional/spiritual healing and development of present adult SDAs and the healthy development of SDA children our first priorities, the Second Coming would take care of itself. Or not. But at least we'd have a healthy social atmosphere to live and raise children in. If I were God, that's where I'd put my money, not threatening people with torture-by-burning for going to church on the "wrong" day, or not "getting the victory over cheese," or whatever. That is such a degrading picture of God and human beings.

maggie · 01-28-09 5:34 pm

BTW, you described the thinking-loop-from-hell very well, Pauli, but the picture was worth a thousand words. And yes, I think that you are very nice looking in that picture also. Oh what a number we do on ourselves.

bob_2 · 01-29-09 12:22 am

I haven't read this whole thread, but I look back on my time as a child, born into SDAism. Was it hurtful, and a destructive existance, NO. The first time I attended another Christian Church, I had feeling of guilt and maybe danger even, this is the baggage that SDAism has loaded onto it's people. The church is bigger than the SDA church. One can worship God in many settings including a Sunday keeping church, especially when the local SDA church is dysfunctional. One book, "Sabbath in Crisis [Christ]" by Dale Ratzlaff helped me a lot on these issues. Even though I feel Dale's overall attitude along with Colleen Tinker is distructive, this book has really studied the issues pretty thoroughly in my opinion.

heipauli · 01-29-09 3:53 pm

The infamous sweater, which weared and weared and weared. BTW, my parents had bought a jacket to my 3 years younger brother. How I never happened to ask: Why to him and not to me, too. Later on I've noticed, how delicate job it is, to treat one's children impartially <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/6/305.jpg" alt="pusakka">

elaine · 01-29-09 6:55 pm

How true! The eyes are the windows of the soul.

heipauli · 01-30-09 3:06 am

Maggie, the video In Memory of Timothy "Beau" Bockmann was professional, emotional, made with skill and big love. Watching it was a moving experience.

heipauli · 01-30-09 3:11 am

For technical reasons The AOL video was not playable. I have a dim memory that AOL needs something I do not possess.

heipauli · 01-30-09 3:40 am

The outlooks are only a tiny aspect, not very decisive as regards one's destiny with women. And I had my depressing moments when looking at the mirror. Actually no one had ever told me that I could be called attractive. Not even having a barely bearable outlook. I felt that I severe defects. I do not dwell on them now. For example I was totally at a loss with girls. I had only two brothers but no sister. In critical years there was no girl of my age in the local churches I attended. In addition to that, in secular schools I was mainly in classes consisting of boys only. Mixed classes were in grades 1 - 2, 5 and 9. Grades 10 - 12 there were only boys in my class. It was not a nation-wide system, but it just happened to me. The denomination did not encourage discussion between boys and girls even in summer camps. So going to randomly to some girl in summer camp and asking her to tell me of girls was not a plan I was able to deliver. So, as regards girls, I was totally a babe got lost. And before marrying, I assumed that there had to be something called dating. But how it got started, of that I had no idea. The denominational papers gave no advice on that problem. And asking one's parents of these things was out of question, at least in my case. But there was the theological and ethical aspect, too. What right had I, a person going to hell, after all, to ask someone to marry me? What right had I to raise kids? If I was going to perdition, why not them, too?

george · 01-30-09 6:02 am

Pauli, How old were you when you were baptized? In the states they seem to go for the 10 to 12 year-olds, even though infant baptism is not acceptable. My husband (third generation SDA) thought he couldn't be promoted to the next grade (church school) unless he was baptized in the sixth grade. My only concept of God was from my mother who associate the things in nature with a loving God. We were Lutherans, of course, and attended church at Christmas, Easter, and for "confirmation". I was baptized in the SDA church at sixteen by my own choice (long story); and have never felt threatened by "end time events" or the perfectionistic teachings. I believe that's because these things were not part of my upbringing. As a result, we never pushed baptism on our kids either.

heipauli · 01-30-09 6:53 am

Sirje, about 13. I do not remember the exact date. It was in the vicinity of my birthday, either before or after the birthday.

heipauli · 01-30-09 7:55 am

If I actually had known that my father had a clear action plan for my marriage already one year before the picture (depicting me with the white cap) was taken, perhaps I had not been so worried of my inablity and irresoluteness as regards girls. Or, maybe I had been even more worried. Who knows? Anyway, without my knowledge and even without my permission, he had started to bombard a certain young lady, who had just recently joined to the denomination. At every possible occasion he went to this young female like a radar-guided missile. Her attempts to be in hiding were in vain, even in a throng of several hundred persons. Every time they met, the discussion went as follows: "Isn't it so that you too do know the Pauli of ours?" " Isn't it so that you too read all the nights before the exams?" " Isn't it so that you too get straight A's in the exams? (an exaggeration, but it could be expected from a person, who acted as spokesman for me, albeit without my consent) Very soon that young lady was fed up with even my name. She complained of the matter to a elderly female Bible instructor (who actually was not so old as her appearance, but it is another story). That person bluntly stated: "You are complaining in vain. Whine as much as you want, but you will die as the wife of that Pauli!" The lady was already Mrs. Heikkinen, when she told that story to me. In first possible occasion I went to my father and asked for an explanation. He stared me calmly, without even blinking an eye and said: "Son, I do not know, what you are talking about". That for pastoral honesty!

maggie · 01-30-09 4:17 pm

Oh, my gosh, Pauli - it's all worse than I even thought! No wonder the vacant eyes! And thanks for watching Beau's video, his memorial service was very moving also.

heipauli · 01-30-09 5:19 pm

The picture was taken May/June 1960, but our paths had already crossed in June 1959 at Kallioniemi campsite at SDA Midsommer camp. I had seen her but without any interest in her. But I had made an impression on her. Namely never in her life had she seen a so depressed, unhappy young person. I know no proper English word to describe the impression. Creep is not quite correct word, but something to that direction. In addition to that, I had a bad speech impediment (i.e. rhotacism) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism</a> I was in 1st or 2nd grade when I was sent to a speech therapist and got some instructions, but obviously I did understand that training means just what the word implies, namely training ;-( (BTW, sometimes in 70's I realized that the fold below my tongue ("frenulum linguae") was too short, too tight; it could be cut, not a big deal. I chose to stretch it myself. After it was not hindering the movements of the tip of my tongue anymore, I began doing the exercises I had failed to do in my childhood. In a week or so I began to be quite content with my r's). In any case, the future Mrs. Heikkinen felt only pity on me in 1959. No attraction at all. Nor no passion whatsoever.

heipauli · 01-30-09 6:01 pm

But some else had been interested in me, albeit without my knowing the fact. And what now follows, is one of the mysteries of my life! Namely sometimes in (early?) 1990's when I visited my parents and the discussion was casual, without any provocation or without any obvious reason, my father started to tell an odd story. It went approximately this way: When our family (i.e. my parents and us 3 sons) lived in Lahti, once our doorbell sounded. The door was opened and at door was a young woman expecting to be welcomed. When inside, she told her errand. Actually it could be described that she asking permission for a marriage between her and me later on, but as I was minor, for starters permission to begin dating with me! She told that she was studying in Lahden Diakoniaopisto (a place where one could become a deaconess; in Finland that means that one is a fully qualified nurse plus some kind a social worker plus religious educator etc; it belongs to the Lutheran churchly offices and one is ordained after one has completed this education). My parents declined the generous offer. The story ends here but my questions began: - What was her name? - Was she an Adventist? - How did she know me, as I did not know her? - Had my parents ever seen her before? - How old she was? - Why was I not told earlier, preferably the very same day, when the incident happened? - Why did my parents reject the offer? In my loysy situation I probably would have been interested even discussing with any girl, especially with someone taking the trouble to make an iniative. None of those questions were answered. I tried my best but my parents were adamant and refused to discuss further on the issue. Let me state, that it is not, I repeat, it is not customary here in Finland nor in any country I know, that a woman asks for a boys hand (if that term is familiar in English) by contacting his parents. Nor in any other way. Whoever that lady was, at least I admire her bravery, and her good taste ;-) Later on I began to grasp that probably there was not any greater defect in her. My father refused, because he had an vested interest in another young lady, the very same he so actively bombarded. A better deal loomed on the horizon... If someone now suspects that I've taken some intoxicating substances, I declare that the story is the truth, nothing added or subtracted, and in addition to that, I'm sober! Life is full of mysteries!

elaine · 01-30-09 6:35 pm

Wow! What an interesting story, Pauli. Please continue.

heipauli · 01-31-09 6:28 am

The denominational weekly Nykyaika arrived yesterday. Among its contents was a somewhat shortened version of the article on dating and courtship. The original can be found at: <a href="http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=1649" target=_top>http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=1649</a> Maybe some of you will read it and think it over. IMO the writer offered young readers a stone instead of bread. Maybe the advice given is applicable in United States where it it - I think - easier for young unmarried SDA's to see each other, or in Near East, where one can water one's camels, or in countries there are still servants to send seek after a suitable young lady. But I myself failed to find any practical advice on the dilemma, how one can learn to know a person of opposite sex, if innocent dating is excluded. No wonder that the denomination is losing the young people

heipauli · 01-31-09 10:15 am

Had I pondered those painful question all the time, I probably had landed to a mental institition, like one of my SDA friends. I tried not to think over future and tried to keep my thoughts occupied by other things, mainly by reading. Mainly the books were of the sort EGW prohibited others to read, but she herself was an avid reader of. So the daily fare was a book or two. Then there was the homework, but the time spent with school assignments was considerably less than my parents figured. OTOH, the reading was a gray area, because the teachers encouraged us to read as much as possible. And they gave no list of books to read, so we were free to choose according to our own whims. Consequently I could tell myself and my parents that this reading was connected with school, kind of. But actually using a wide range of reading was some kind of preparation for my two careers (physician and preacher; BTW one Lutheran lay activist actually gave me the title "pastordoctor" in a fit of envy). After listening to some of the tape recordings of my sermons, my father was dumbfounded: " from where do you get all those ideas? Namely he did not get ideas for his sermons; the usual method was to tell the listeners what had happened to him recently, when he was converting the "pupils" of the denominational Bible Correspondence School to Adventism. When he performed the pastoral role in my wedding ceremony, I thought while standing at the altar, "now you papa are compelled once in your life to give a speech consisting your own ideas", but no, all the paragraphs were copypasted from books of SOP; I even recognized everyone of them. I once suggested him that he could enjoy reading the first book of the Iijoki-series (c.f. my next message). He read the book, but told me that he was unwilling to continue reading, in order not to deprave his imagination. IMO the book was quite innocent, but perhaps it brought up memories which were not so innocent. And for those male Finnish readers to this site, who hadn't noticed anything peculiar in me in those days, I explain now that being in a company consisting of males only, was not difficult at all. In such context I was able to forget that there were girls on the planet, too. And what regards Hell, a young Adventist never ever dared to take up the issue. It was a taboo. Not very difficult to imagine, why so :-( An elderly Adventist, who had hardened his/her conscience could be an exception to that rule. For example an old man, who had already forgotten, what he was supposed to do with a woman and imagined that not remembering was due to his sanctification.

heipauli · 01-31-09 10:18 am

Quote: "Kaarlo (Kalle) Alvar Päätalo (November 11, 1919 - November 20, 2000) was a Finnish novelist, the most popular Finnish writer in the 20th century. The house on Kallioniemi was the childhood home of Kalle Päätalo. It was built by his father. Päätalo was born in Taivalkoski, Province of Oulu, into poor circumstances. His father, a lumberjack, suffered from periodical mental disorders, and Kalle had to maintain his family from the age of 14 in his father's profession. At the same time, he dreamed about becoming a writer and read avidly, being much influenced by Jack London's Martin Eden and Mika Waltari's guidebook for aspiring writers. His war service in Winter War and Continuation War was cut short by being wounded. After the wars, he moved to Tampere where he studied at technical school, becoming a building contractor, and wrote short stories that were published in various magazines. He was married twice and had two daughters by the second marriage. Päätalo debuted as a novelist in 1958 with a novel set at a building site in Tampere. In his second novel Our Daily Bread, the first book in the five-volume Koillismaa series, he turned to his native region. By this time, Päätalo was able to turn a freelance writer, and from 1962 until his death he published one book each year. In 1971 he published what was to be the first volume in the 26-volume series Juuret Iijoen törmässä ('Roots in the Bank of River Ii'), probably the longest autobiographical narrative in the world (some 17 000 pages in total). The series charts Päätalo's life from his early childhood to the publication of his first novel, at the same time offering an interesting view of Finnish history over some four decades as seen from an individual's viewpoint." There is more on Päätalo when you click the link below, even of the house he lived in in his childhood/youth. It is a destination of pilgrimage for thousands of Päätalo-fans every summer. The name of the home, Kallioniemi, has nothing to do with SDA campsite with the same name (meaning [rocky] headland). Source (with outdated info as regards the published volumes and pages thereof; about 8 - 9 novels have been published posthumously and obviously there is material enough for some additional novels): <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalle_P%C3%A4%C3%A4talo" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalle_P%C3%A4%C3%A4ta lo</a>

heipauli · 02-06-09 12:29 pm

Sirje, you asked my age when I was baptized. I have checked. The baptismal happened about 5 weeks after my 13th birthday. Below is a picture. No one in the picture seems to be very happy, not even the pastor. Obviously he had expected a greater harvest. As you must know, one's promotion was dependent on one's performance, measured by numbers, not quality. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/6/437.jpg" alt="kaste">

george · 02-06-09 4:51 pm

How come Jesus is our example in everything except the age of baptism? How is this group different from infant baptism? There is no way these kids are able to make a knowledgeable decision that will effect their entire life. It's almost like getting married at 12 or 13. The age is about the same here in North America for SDA families.

elaine · 02-06-09 6:07 pm

It's all the SDA (hallowed) tradition! If only they were required to first study all religions and learn to think critically, they would be at least in their 20s (which should be for marriage) before baptism.

maggie · 02-07-09 3:02 pm

The Finns are quite the handsome people! But so somber on the joyous occasion of freeing children from the Flames of Hell. No wait...only one in twenty children...and there are only nine there..and they aren't the favored American Children, so...OK, I understand. SDAs must do what they can nonetheless, I guess....

maggie · 02-07-09 3:33 pm

Nothing like a picture to demonstrate that none of this is academic.

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